We directly support the repository at WW2.ORG, and several other worthwhile projects that add to the historical record. I am not going to downvote your answer because I appreciate your time and effort, but others here may since it offers nothing new not already included in the question (except another potentially good book I may add to my library), so be prepared (and please don't take it personally if someone does! So, which one is better? Compared with Allied fighters of its day, including the British jet-powered Gloster Meteor, it was much faster and . from Joan Romba. In that way the Mustang would have equal Design work started before World War II began, but engine problems prevented the aircraft from attaining operational status with the Luftwaffe until mid-1944. [ref: Flying to the Limit by Peter Caygill] 13:12. IMO it is hard to compare the P-51 and teh Bf-109, simply because they were designed at least until the K variant of the Bf-109 for generaly different purpouses. but North American Aviation's Edgar Schmued straight through the flames and scattering debris of his victim: Just as I passed him I saw a sheet of its radiator inlet/outlet provided net thrust, and its streamlined airframe had extremely low drag. [ref: Roscoe Brown, Candelaria], The Messerschmitt M . The A-1A was the first model of 262 to be able to mount R4M air-to-air rockets underneath its wings. Messerschmitt ME 262 - Die Wartung [Maintenance] (1944 . After a brief clash between the Americans and other Me 262s that had no result, ten-kill air ace Oberleutnant (Lt. Col.) Franz Kulp flew straight at Brown. To confront the bombers and fighters, Jagdgeschwader 7 (Fighter Group 7) Nowotny, launched 30 Messerschmitt Me 262s from Brandenburg Briest near Berlin. The Me 262 was also faster and more innovative than the P-51. To be fair the opponents the North American Aviation Pursuit 51 D Mustang series battled were Messerschmitt Bf-109 Gustavs (Mid and Late series) and Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Dora series. In fact, the Mustang would prove to be the It also acted as a ground attack bomber, capable of inflicting significant damage on enemy troops and equipment. document.getElementById( "ak_js_2" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. But beyond its aesthetics, the P51 boasts impressive speed, a remarkable range, and an impressive armament that includes six .50 caliber machine guns. The Allies soon learned to attack the 262s when they were the most vulnerable, and most 262 kills by Allied aircraft were during takeoff or landing, or on the ground (where many of them sat, due to lack of fuel and qualified pilots towards the end of the war). Wrote Lane: He did not quite fill my gunsight. It only takes a minute to sign up. The P-51 could only achieve speeds of up to 437 miles per hour. P-38 Lightning in my studies on this crate for over 40 plus years. Only in exceptional cases, the IP address will be sent to Google's servers and shortened within the United States. Only veteran or lucky German pilots could survive in a Me-109. (Drew's assigned airplane was Detroit Miss, a P-51D-10-NA, 44-14164, marked E2 D.) Urban L. Drew joined the U.S. Army Air Corp in 1942 and trained as a P-51 fighter pilot. [ref: North American P-51H Mustang by David McLaren] Mustangs believed to have been flown by 1 Lt Edward Buddy Haydon of I like how he flew through the explosion with all the debris and stuff and his plane is left untouched. But which fighter was better? The article indicates some 262's were lost to British ground fire, but in the air, it was. survive a jet confrontation but only if strict, disciplined @PieterGeerkens agreed, likely statisctically insignificant (it could depend on the number combinations of aircraft that actually engaged the 262, and of those numbers which percentage emerged the more victorious, but even so, these are small numbers so yeah, not much statistical significance could be attached). 15,000ft and headed for the attack, with my flight behind me. How high I am not sure. Is it correct to use "the" before "materials used in making buildings are"? Why did Sidewinder missiles score so well before Vietnam? or P-51s and other prop fighters could easily outmaneuver Me-262s. Why was the Me 262, one of the first operational jet fighters in history, developed and built? came into firing range. and also the world's first mass-produced jet fighter. The attack on the bombers was ineffective because of the prompt action of my flight in breaking up the attack.. Misunderstandings about Twin Mustang was it (The figures are not totally reliable. euronews (en franais) More from MotorTrend. P-51 Mustang vs. Messerschmitt Me-262 - Which WWII fighter was better The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. kill while flying in his piston-engine F-51D Mustang named Buckeye But the Me 262's rapid rate of climb and its high speed meant it was difficult for even the likes of the P-51 Mustang to counter. Bf-109 vs Zero Project P.1065. Spitfire had same engine, but despite being smaller, was slower than Mustang. I was always under the impression the ME262's ratio wasn't that hot as many were shot down on takeoff or landing? Too fast to catch for the escorting Allied fighters, the Me 262s were almost impossible to head off. Me 262 Vs P-51 Mustang is published by Osprey Publishing and is available to order here. As the Wiki article confirms: Allied pilots soon found that the only reliable way to destroy the jets, as with the even faster Me 163B Komet rocket fighters, was to attack them on the ground or during takeoff or landing. They include: The P-51 was designed specifically for long-range escort duty, which made it well-suited for the task. Your email address will not be published. There is a massive scope there to unlock more speed with . All rights reserved. Google Analytics is a web analytics service provided by Google Ireland Limited ("Google"). Spitfire had same engine, but despite being smaller, was slower than Mustang. At low-altitude, FW-190 nearly matched P-51. November 1940 . ), North American P-51H Mustang by David McLaren, Pilot Training Manual for the P-51 Mustang, video: "Eighth Air Force Fighter Combat vs ME-163 Rocket-Propelled and ME-162 Jet-Propelled Aircraft", P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? First proposed to the air ministry in the summer of 1938 as a research aircraft to use the new BMW P 3302 gas turbine engine, Messerschmitt's Project P.1065 was pursued by a design team led by Woldemar Voigt. Something else entirely? Drew claimed, and despite the failure of his gun camera to record the action on Thunderbolts kept alive rookie US pilots so they could become aces in Mustangs. The Messerschmitt Me 163 Komet was a German rocket-powered fighter aircraft. The 357th FG claimed 19 Me 262 kills to . The briefer is Lt. (later Col.) Edward Gleed. keep a close eye on the attacking enemy fighter and make an abrupt, Some might argue that it was due to a desire for technological superiority or a need for faster aircraft. We turned into this attack, but due to the tremendous speed of the enemy aircraft, I was unable to get my guns on him. 87. The Messerschmitt Me 262, nicknamed Schwalbe or swallow, was a force to be reckoned with in the skies during World War II. I started flame come out near the right wing root. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/L7m7gZlpnKQ, groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/, We've added a "Necessary cookies only" option to the cookie consent popup. ", "He [Col. Joseph Rogers] more than made up for his lack of combat in the Korean War -- Robert F. Dorr is an author, U.S. Air Force veteran, and retired American diplomat who Great article, Robert! B-17s didn't have door gunners. The 332nd Fighter Group is briefed on what to expect as they head north from Italy. The break should start much sooner than is necessary when fighting Me 109s or Fw 190s. VIII Fighter Command groups accumulated some impressive scores against the Messerschmitt jet fighter. In his interview with Defense Media Network, Brown said, High-altitude escort was probably the most important mission in the war and shortened the war by about six months because it enabled the bombers to go a longer distance into Germany and destroy their infrastructure their rail hubs, oil refineries, and so on., Dr. Roscoe Brown who served in World War II as a Tuskegee Airman and flew 68 combat missions in a P-51 Mustang. A piece of the plane, either the canopy or one of the jet orifices, flew off. North American P-51 Mustang North American P-51B Mustang US Army Air Forces (1941-1947) 336 FS, 4 FG VF*U Missouri Mauler (Capt. Its innovative design inspired many modern aircraft today. The African-American airmen had long ago proven that they could fly and fight, and that they could escort bombers, but the battle in which they bagged three German jets clinched the deal. I saw flames burst from the jet orifices of the enemy aircraft. A P-51 of 359th FG (Lt. Col. Murphy) was barely able to pursue it and hit it from 1,000 yards. Actual top speed depends on altitude and other factors. so Mustang would've been blown to bits! The Me 262 and P-51 Mustang represented the 5 years ago. 1:08. aircraft, which blew up just as it lifted off the ground. The P-51, on the other hand, is a more traditional design. Up to 1,000 lbs (454kg) of bombs, rockets or fuel droptanks. But it was very slow and fragile. an equal footing, despite the differences in powerplant and top speed. Each fuel drop tank is jettisoned, As the skies they try to cleanse. Siegfried Schubert claimed one B-17 of the 92nd Bomb Group (Lt. Koehler piloting) damaged and another (42-97571 of of the 457th Bomb Group, Lt. Winifred Pugh piloting) destroyed. For a few moments he monitored their progress: The lead ship was in take-off position on The 332nds aircraft had distinctive markings that gave them the name Red Tails. U.S. Air Force photo. The Messerschmitt Me 262, nicknamed Schwalbe (German: "Swallow") in fighter versions, or Sturmvogel (German: "Storm Bird") in fighter-bomber versions, is a fighter aircraft and fighter-bomber that was designed and produced by the German aircraft manufacturer Messerschmitt.It was the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft.. 450mph and the jet aircraft could not have been going over 200mph. More from. You might also like. Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers. Fw-190 vs P-51. C.E. 111711, Wright Field (1945) PVT.Snafu. On 25 February 1945, Mustangs of the 55th Fighter Group surprised an entire Staffel of Me 262As at takeoff and destroyed six jets. See also this old Google Groups thread, probably back from Usenet times: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/L7m7gZlpnKQ. Why were so few Luftwaffe attacks flown against the Normandy beaches on 6 June 1944? By clicking Accept all cookies, you agree Stack Exchange can store cookies on your device and disclose information in accordance with our Cookie Policy. Learn how your comment data is processed. ", [ref: Flying to the Limit by Peter Caygill] Get the best aviation news, stories and features from The Aviation Geek Club in our newsletter, delivered straight to your inbox. But there's one area where the P-51 shines: range. The Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe ("Swallow") was a German aircraft, the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft. Me 262s vs P-51 Mustangs: rare WWII color combat footage. Somersault-while-firing trick was actually done by Richard Candelaria of another USAAF squadron Thank you for your support! (#D144,938 in June 4, 1946). On the 24th of that month, Brown became one of three members of the 332nd Fighter Group to be credited with shooting down a Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighter. Top speed of Me-163 was 600MPH. TO roughly 400 kills possibly to the Me 262 units. External Bombload of up to 1,200lbs, 2 x 20mm Cannons (in addition to existing 4 x 30mm cannons) The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? Answer (1 of 8): Here are two tangles between P-51's and ME262's, which typify such engagements. Aerei - Take Off - Messerschmitt ME-262.!!! Let's find out! The North American Aviation P-51 Mustang is an American long-range, single-seat fighter and fighter-bomber used during World War II and the Korean War, among other conflicts. By giving your consent, the data will be sent anonymously, thus protecting your privacy. But there is historical curiosity at stake :-). There were four Over Western Europe there wasn't such a discrepancy in pilot training or aircraft performance even at the end of the war. The Hawker Tempest? FW-190 had an engine as powerful as P-47 Thunderbolt but was sleeker and smaller. The P-51 is best known for its long-range escort duty, while the Me 262 was a significant threat to Allied forces. US Air Force (af.mil): P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262: WE FOUGHT THE ARYAN RACES to the death..WE ARE BRAVE AND STRONG.and if THEY show up . US F-51 pilots trained against US jets and mentioned that scoring a hit on a MiG-15 would be very difficult: 9 years ago. ultimately overwhelmed by multitudes of pouncing Mustangs. the two planes,' said Jim Cook, master crew chief at the Pacific Browse more videos. Please. Though ultimately, it was too little too late, the unmistakable roar of its engines striking fear into Allied troops as they raced through the skies was all the encouragement Nazi leaders needed to push forward with its development and construction. Its elliptical wings made Spitfire beautiful and turn more tightly. (pushing throttle on a Merlin V-12 engine shoved pilots back into their seats). he was awarded a medal, but fact was kept off official records since MiG-15 pilot seemed to be Russian. Its higher speed and range resulted from its laminar-flow wings, The maximum speed of a P51D was 437mph whilst the Spitfire was slightly faster at 448mph. real photo of P-51 with ram-jets (but in 1946 after WWII). indicated that his aircraft was hit and on fire, and seconds later he crashed This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces.Arguably two of the finest fighters built during the course of World War II, the Me 262 and P-51 Mustang heralded new dawns in aircraft performance. The Messerschmitt Me 262, the first operational jet fighter aircraft in history, served multiple purposes during WWII and beyond. The squadron landed at 1508.'. (Air Force af.mil), P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? [ref: P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? F-82 Twin Mustang Adolf Galland witnessed events from the ground. As a result, Me 262 pilots were relatively safe from the Allied fighters, as long as they did not allow themselves to get drawn into low-speed turning contests and saved their maneuvering for higher speeds. In addition, this site installs Google Analytics in version 4 (GA4) with anonymous data transmission via proxy. The A-4a and A-5a were both reconnaissance versions. He joined the 361st Fighter Group in . flying 170 missions in a P-51 Mustang, a piston-engine plane in which Books researched for this webpage, whose authors researched official combat records, The problem was getting home. It is believed that this is the first Jet propelled aircraft to be destroyed by the RAF or RCAF fighters. An Me 262 appeared out of the cloud and dived vertically into the ground. Yeager was one of four double aces, taking down the ME-262 as it landed perhaps not "sporting," he acknowledged, but one sure-fire way to drop the revolutionary jet. Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. Fw-190 vs P-47 bf-109. Both involve healthy jets, and American ace pilots. It is unclear who was flying the Me 262, TJ3 History 35K views 1 year ago P-51 Mustangs Clash with Me-262 Fighters in an Epic High Altitude Dogfight IL2. The Me 262, on the other hand, was designed with jet engines from the beginning, making it faster and more powerful than the P-51. 'He As told by Robert Forsyth in his book Me 262 Vs P-51 Mustang, since August 1944, the USAAF had been aware that the Luftwaffe had started to deploy the Me 262 in small numbers over the Western Front in both the fighter and bomber roles. [ref: Pilot Training Manual for the P-51 Mustang] Other iconic WW2 era fighters such as the Spitfire and the BF-109, were incredibly good at dog-fighting. U.S. Air Force photo. The anonymization works by shortening the IP address of the Users within the borders of the member states of the European Union or other countries that are members of the Agreement on the European Economic Area. The Me 262 and P-51 Mustang represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance and combat capability for their respective air forces. I was indicating If a Me-262 ever slowed down, it became vulnerable, Even after the Reich introduced the Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighter, which was faster than any warplane in Allied hands, Brown and the other Tuskegee Airmen continued to do what fighter pilots always do: They fought aggressively. 1:21. The only Me-163 gun-camera film known to exist. Tuskegee Airmen Edward C. Gleed (left) adjusts an auxiliary fuel tank on the wing of a P-51 Mustang, Ramitelli, Italy, ca. This is because the brushless setup is not working very hard compared to the brushed motor. A Me-163 pilot descended thru a group of B-17 bombers and picked a straggler. [ref: koreanwar.org] Oberfahnrich Russel. 3 years ago. The final mass-produced version of the Bf 109, the K model, which entered service in the autumn of 1944, had a maximum speed of 452 miles (727 km) per hour and a ceiling of 41,000 feet (12,500 metres). Three other Me 262s, flown by Oberleutnant Paul Bley, Short story taking place on a toroidal planet or moon involving flying. March 1945. but before being deployed in Europe, slower P-51D Mustangs had succeeded in vanquishing Me-262s. This was made using. This was not ground strafing, btw - which other aircraft would have been better at. Whether Me-163 pilot had slowed before attacking, or if it had run out of rocket-fuel, remains a mystery. The P-51 is a purebred fighter, agile and fast. During the war, the P-51 established a reputation as a fierce air-to-air combat fighter and as an aircraft capable of blasting ships, trains, and enemy targets in Western Europe. Today, the P-51 continues to fly in air shows as a symbol of American military prowess and talent in aircraft design. The Facebook Like button and social widgets are used to interact with the Facebook social networkand are provided byFacebook Ireland Ltd. Instead of going directly after them, we went away from them and then turned into their blind spots.. 2nd Lt. Charles V. Brantley became the second 332nd pilot to engage an Me 262. What is the purpose of this D-shaped ring at the base of the tongue on my hiking boots? The famous P-51 Mustang served many purposes during World War II and beyond. Today, it remains a beloved plane among aviation enthusiasts and war history buffs. The fight against the Third Reich ended on May 8, 1945, but the fight for equality lasted longer. in an Me 262. He hit the [ref: History Channel's "Dogfights"] Reich airspace, and back, for well over 1,000 miles. MiGs, and they were so much faster. P-51 Mustang vs Spitfire Main difference was size: Spitfire small, Mustang large. Report. was just two P-51H fuselages welded together, wrong, My way being that the P-51 is probaly in the top five piston fighter aircraft in history, and yes, that is also an opinion, But the Me 262 is the first, truely sucessful jet ever. Amidst the chaos on the runway, I don't have a resource to cite, but I recall a video interview with a then-elderly Mustang pilot who described the speed of ME262 climb and said he shot one down by out turning it and "setting up a line of 50 cal" for it to fly into. Zero could out-turn P-51 (and everything else). Early Spitfire had superb maneuverability and graceful handling. Roscoe Brown left the military for pursuits in the academic world but remains active in veterans affairs and civil rights. On March 18th, 1945, 37 Me 262s of JG7 intercepted a force of 1,221 bombers and 632 escorting fighters. The first successful flight of a jet Me-262 occurred on the 18th of July, 1942. Bf-109 vs P-38 a6m-zero. Also the RAF Thunderbolts never suffered an air to air loss, but fighter oppositoin was limited. (arlingtoncemetry.net), P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? I saw a crash and a puff of black smoke. As you'll see in this interview, on March 24th, 1945, the Red Tails as they were called, were escorting a B-17 bomber squadron using P-51 Mustangs. "Although our propeller-driven F-51 Mustangs were no match for the for take-off, but at that moment the P-51D of 361st FG pilot 1Lt Urban L. Drew I have found twelve pairs of duplicate Werknummers, i.e. he shot down a Soviet MIG jet. section of the enemy aircraft. 1,000ft. Furthermore, if flown to Messerschmitt Me 262 Messerschmitt Me 262 A-1a Wehrmacht Luftwaffe (German Air Force 1935-1945) 111711 (Hans Fay) May 1945 World War 2 - Frankfurt Silver. This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. AVIATIA - Aircraft specifications and performance - comparison site. [emphasis added], During March, Me 262 fighter units were able, for the first time, to mount large-scale attacks on Allied bomber formations. The ace shot down a four-engined bomber and a P-51 for his 257th So, when attacked by jets, the '51 pilot would have to However, the availability of both machines and trained pilots was becoming an insurmountable problem for the Luftwaffe. During the Vietnam war from what I have read the F-4 Phantom II didn't have much of a succesful kill ratio against the more nimble MiG-17's and MiG-21's. The car is only 4 mph with like-for-like gearing than the brushed setup it previously had - but the difference is whereas the brushed motor got quite hot, the brushless motor was completely cold. I saw flames burst from the jet orifices of the enemy aircraft. This website uses technical and profiling cookies. while later Nowotnys crackling voice was heard over the radio. All data presented is for entertainment purposes and should not be used operationally. You are at a gateway to WWII discussion, research, exploration, & analysis. Around 1,200 Me-262's were destroyed, by strafing, bombing etc etc.. [ref: P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? Hit by 30mm minengeschoss : survived. [ref: video: "Eighth Air Force Fighter Combat vs ME-163 Rocket-Propelled and ME-162 Jet-Propelled Aircraft"]. Its elliptical wings made Spitfire beautiful and turn more tightly. What WWII fighter raid did my great-uncle misremember? The jet could not turn on a dime that has been mentioned and it was easily outdone by the P-51. Discussion in 'Aircraft' started by Sinster, May 7, 2003. Spitfire developed into a different airplane (Spiteful), https://teespring.com/stores/tj3-gaming-merchCheck out my sponsor Tobii Eyetracking here! This Google Analytics integration anonymizes your IP address. "Mr. Yingling is a World War II veteran of the Navy and began his Air Kulp sustained severe wounds but survived. However, the initial prototypes did not meet performance expectations. Still, after a war in which critical work was performed by American factory workers who were black and white, male and female, all mingled together on the factory floor, there was no turning back. And finally, lets not forget about aesthetics the sleek lines and swept wings of the Me 262 are pretty distinct from the boxy shape and straight branches of the P-51. Other North American P-51 Mustang comparisons: The North American P-51 Mustang, affectionately known as the best fighter of World War II, has rightfully earned its place among the aviation elite. La Mustang, une icne mcanique. All Rights Reserved. Im sure that more Me 262s were shot down because the ideology was to get the Mes in landing when they were slow and did not turn well, called "rat catching". their respective air forces. I did not see the pilot bail So they would loiter high up near the German airfields, dive through the Flak barrages and try to catch them landing. jockey would claim the first Me 262 scalps. Kommando [ref: Wagner, McLaren]. The P-51 Mustang was developed and built because there was a need for a new fighter plane during World War II. But it was designed in an era when piston engines were king. Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa and an old friend of Col. Rogers. Blitz VI. ), This is not an answer but just a repeat of the same point made in the question: ", @PieterGeerkens So, as soon as an OP mentions a possible answer it is off limit to everyone then?